Forza Motorsport / Horizon / Turn10

crysmopompas · 26. März 2011 um 13:17

Ein interessantes Posting von Amar, welche externen Designer bei Forza beteiligt waren:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26705039&postcount=275

Diese externen Dienstleister haben auch andere genutzt: The Club, Gotham, Battlefield 2, Sega Rally, Dirt 2, NFS: Undercover, GRID, F1 2010

crysmopompas · 27. März 2011 um 16:20

Ein LOD1 Modell (also nicht das "HD" Modell aus den Menüs) aus FM3, extern gerendert:

eso76 sagte:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26727044&postcount=346
Weitere: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26739232&postcount=379

Die Zahlen entsprechen etwa den 27-28k von denen ein Shift 2 Designer kürzlich sprach. Shift läuft mit der halben Bildrate - ermöglicht aber auch 16 Autos auf der Strecke und mehr Rauch.

Die schlechten Materialien in den FM3 Cockpits sind deutlich zu erkennen - vor allem im Vergleich zu GT5.

Afair ist es bisher niemandem gelungen 3D Daten aus GT5P oder GT5 zu extrahieren. Somit ist man für Vergleiche auf wage Angaben aus Interviews angewiesen. Polygoncount ist natürlich nicht alles...

Edit:
Jemand widerspricht:

Apex sagte:

Edit2:

eso76 sagte:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSxcDcE6ZgY[/ame]

Ashe · 27. März 2011 um 16:54

also die poly anzahl reicht im prinzip.

man müsste halt nur immer ein modell höher lodden. offenbar geht das aber ingame nicht ohne größere probleme, im gegensatz zu photomode & co.

wenn die (alle :shock:

) cockpits dann normal aussehen wie z.b. in gt5 wären das schon gefühlte 10 mal besser :ugly:

Jeff Jarrett · 1. April 2011 um 22:43

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaoyuDBmJ1o&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

bastiHST · 1. April 2011 um 23:08

Jeff Jarrett sagte:

Oha, das wird was großes.

Ashe · 2. April 2011 um 01:27

also ich seh 14 fahrzeuge auf der strecke (werden dann vermutlich 16?) und ein paar ausschnitte aus dem neuen photomodus, den kennen wir ja bereits. sonst ist alles wie forza 3.

Kyrill · 2. April 2011 um 03:41

Verdammt...

Ich hätte nie gedacht dass ich das jemals sagen würde aber ich glaube Forza 4 wird Gran Turismo nun wirklich abhängen. Also was mich wirklich am Trailer interessiert hat war nicht mit Kinect zu interagieren sondern wie sie die Atmosphäre der Umgebung rüberbringen! Für mich ist bei einem Racer die Atmosphäre viel wichtiger als die Details eines Motors...

Sollte Kazunori für GT6 nicht wieder alle Geschütze auffahren und sich wirklich aufs wesentliche konstentrieren, könnte ich wirklich nun doch zu Forza umsteigen. Als alter GT Veteran wider mich das irgendwie an extra eine andere Konsole nur für ein Rennspiel zu kaufen aber ich sehe in GT5 keine Langzeitmotivation mehr wie in den alten GT Teilen. Da müsste schon ein heftiges Update für GT5 erscheinen um mich in Zukunft wieder heiss auf mein -noch- aktuellen Genrekönig zu machen.

crysmopompas · 2. April 2011 um 06:31

Der beste Aprilscherz dieses Jahr

.

Oktober 2011
interessante neue Strecken, zumindest auf den ersten Blick
die Hände am Lenkrad schauen genauso schwach aus wie in FM3 - hoffentlich wird das bis zum Release besser
endlich aktive Aerodynamik
Online Car Clubs aus FM1(!) sind zurück
16 Spieler - von vielen gewünscht, aber ich habe hier ein wenig Sorge, ob FM damit seine vorbildliche Framerate halten kann. Hoffentlich gehen sie nicht den GT5 Weg und bauen viele Features ohne Rücksicht auf die Performance ein
evtl. besser aufbereiteter Karrieremodus
keine Nachtrennen, kein Regen zu sehen
"Hollywood Effects" - das gehört in andere Spiele
Porsche ist nicht zu sehen

Bei YT wurde das Video gelöscht, hier ist es noch: http://vghq.net/2011/04/01/leaked-internal-forza-4-in-game-footage-looks-stunning/

Kyrill · 2. April 2011 um 06:46

Verstehe ich das richtig? Das Video war ein Aprilscherz?

crysmopompas · 2. April 2011 um 07:16

Kyrill sagte:

Nein, wollte damit nur sagen das Video ist besser als so mancher Aprilscherz dieses Jahr...

---------- Beitrag um 07:16 Uhr hinzugefügt ---------- Vorheriger Beitrag um 06:59 Uhr ----------

http://kotaku.com/#!5788195/purportedly-leaked-forza-4-video-confirms-kinect-features

"Five new locations" - die große Alpenregion schaut sehr interessant aus, von einigen klassischen Rennstrecken, die dem Spiel noch fehlen, war nichts zusehen.
Das häßliche Orange wurde weniger, z.B. an den Handschuhen
Photo Locations ? - hoffentlich kann man diesesmal bessere Bilder exportieren
Wenn sich die Autos jetzt schon öffnen lassen gibt's hoffentlich mehr offen fahrbare Autos - das ist bei FM3 und GT5 ein Trauerspiel in geschlossenen Cabrios zu fahren

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59s4-MF4mxQ[/ame]

Ashe · 2. April 2011 um 16:58

crysmopompas sagte:

- also wenn sie 60 fps 100% gelockt und 2xAA hinkriegen dann hut ab :okay:

- man hat immer noch ein paar lods die man während des rennens tiefer gehen kann

wo z.b. die 10 - 16 wagen vorbeihuschen sieht es nicht unbedingt nach f3 replay qualität aus. mir ist die grafik da auch nicht so wichtig. wobei der sprung vom neuen "photo"modus schon in dem trailer enorm ist.

crysmopompas sagte:

microsoft hat auch keine porsche lizenz.

aber ich hoffe die kriegen noch eine schließlich ist die porsche auswahl bei forza vorbildlich z.b. mit den 90er GT1 boliden und einigen klassikern.

AngelvsMadman · 2. April 2011 um 17:29

Das mit den Lizenzen ist mir sowieso etwas unbegreiflich.
Das ist eine Geldquelle und damit quasi Marketing wo man sogar mal Kohle kriegt und nicht ausgeben muss.
Statdessen vehalten sich die Autoherrsteller hier wie von vorgestern und haben auch noch Bedenken wg. dem Schadensmodell. Dabei kann ich ohne großen Aufwand auf youtube zig Vids von geschrotteten Premium-Schlitten sehen, die noch schlimmer zugerichtet sind, als in den Spielen.

crysmopompas · 2. April 2011 um 17:29

Ashe sagte:

Mancher hatte die entgegengesetzte Hoffnung: höhere LOD Modelle In-Game - bei 16 Spielern geht das aber noch weniger.

Was noch auffällig war: Der Trailer zeigte keine neuen Autos (Außer lt. Neogaf eine neue Variante eines McLaren).

Optimist: Bisher hatte jedes FM Porsche, im vorletzten FM3 DLC war ein Porsche
Pessimist: In Shift2 sind keine Spuren von Ferrari, aber von anderem DLC - könnte auf Probleme bei einem "Lizenztausch" hindeuten

Nicht mein Geschmack, aber gut gemacht:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j32Osfgihxc&feature=relmfu[/ame]

AngelvsMadman · 2. April 2011 um 17:33

Wobei ja dieses Mal auch Sony als "Lizenzspender" wirken kann. Haben sie ja glaube ich bei Grid gemacht (oer hab ich das falsch vestanden).

Ashe · 2. April 2011 um 22:33

crysmopompas sagte:

oder beides kombiniert: wenn man noch am verhandeln ist wäre es auch etwas unklug in dem trailer porsche einzubauen... :kafee:

crysmopompas · 4. April 2011 um 09:47

Was bisher identifiziert wurde:

Top Gear Test Track
Hockhenheimring
Alpenregion - vermutlich sehr groß
Infineon Raceway
Indianapolis Motor Speedway (das ist imo am wenigsten ersichtlich)

Die Auswahl erinnert doch sehr an GT.

Eine Erklärung zum im Trailer genannten "Image based lighting" :http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26869316&postcount=453

Im Trailer steckt übrigens doch ein Porsche: In der Szene, die viele Minibilder auf einmal zeigt.

Ashe · 4. April 2011 um 19:48

crysmopompas sagte:

da sind wir dann schon bei 2x besser :okay:

crysmopompas · 6. April 2011 um 23:04

Turn 10’s Dan Greenawalt Reflects on the Past, Present and Future of the Forza Franchise

There aren’t many games for Microsoft that can literally sell themselves. Sure, Halo, Gears and Fable will continue to sell on name alone, but the truth is that their secret weapon of this generation has quite simply been their Forza franchise and its rapid rise to prominence. It wasn’t always plain sailing though and speaking with Turn 10’s Game Director yesterday, Dan Greenawalt, the creative lead reminisced on his and Turn 10’s time with the franchise.

“I dared to dream,” said Greenawalt when asked whether Turn 10 envisaged that they would become one of Microsoft’s lynchpins in its first-party catalogue. “I think Microsoft saw it as a business imperative to challenge Gran Turismo and Sony, but our dream was always to make something much bigger than a competitive IP.” For Greenawalt and Turn 10, it wasn’t just about being the best simulation out there, said the humble design director, it’s about changing how people think about cars, but attacking the subject from both sides of the table. “It’s about making car fans into game fans; and game fans into car fans,” he continued, “We wanted to change how people thought about cars and interacted with the content in a whole different way.”

Hold on a minute… it’s just about getting people interested in cars? “Yeah!” he nonchalantly chuckled, “It sounds kind of naïve now, but it really was. It was about how we could get all generations excited about games and about cars.”

When starting out though, it was important for the team to remain focused, especially when they were going up against Microsoft’s own Project Gotham – an established racer of a different ilk, maybe, but still a Microsoft first-party racing franchise. “I didn’t think that far out because it would have paralysed me with nervousness,” said Greenawalt in response to Project Gotham. “Our focus was finding an identity for our franchise and getting the right team together. We were 100% consumed with putting together a world class studio and then hoped the franchise would have the grounding to establish itself.”

Although there may be an air of confidence about Greenawalt that can sometimes gets misrepresented within gaming circles, Turn 10 still suffer from the same anxieties about their games than the rest of the games development fold. “We thought we were going to get criticised in the press with our first game,” lamented the Game Director, “but it came out to positive reviews – we really were our own worst critics. Same thing happened with second and third titles, too.”

Greenawalt even candidly admitted that they might have lacked direction early on. “In fact, Forza 1 was our most unfocused game,” he noted, “despite having less features than say Forza 3 for example.”

Thankfully for the team and their sanity, Greenawalt’s role now allows him to act as a kind of glue of sorts that binds the team together. “Now I take an outside look and can be more impartial and appreciate our achievements,” he noted, “I literally have to turn round to the team now and go, “Look, we’ve got a great game here.””

“We definitely got more ambitious,” admitted Greenawalt, as he talked through their focus from one game to the next. “First we wanted to nail the simulation engine. As we moved into later versions, that vision of turning game lovers in car lovers and vice-versa became more possible – using Xbox LIVE and connecting people together. By Forza 3 we actively started moving to capture these people and now we know we can aim for a broader consumer without leaving existing fans behind.”

The racing genre and the simulation genre specifically is a field that’s become highly competitive in recent years and Greenawalt is quick to recognise that, especially the rise in form from EA’s Shift franchise. “Of course I’ve kept an eye of them,” he said about Shift. “There are cool ideas in the genre right now and it would be foolish of me not to take note of that,” said Greenawalt, noting that a lot of the Western developers are fans of each other’s work. “It’s a small community, especially with regard to European and North American developers. Maybe not quite so with Japanese developers , that tends to be another circle, but we do play each other’s projects.”

Ah, of course... the Japanese developers, specifically, Gran Turismo developers Polyphony Digital, who spent years tirelessly slaving over their prized possession, Gran Turismo 5. Does Greenawalt believe that the lengthy development schedule allowed them to sneak in almost unseen? “Perhaps,” he candidly admits. “Objectively, we’ve had a bigger window to operate in, but as fans of racing, we like competition and while we may share a lot of features, we really do welcome the competition. Need for Speed is another juggernaut title for us, especially as we share the same platform.”

But surely creating a three game franchise in the space it takes one developer to deliver one title must be quite satisfying? Greenawalt wasn’t so sure. “I don’t know if I’m satisfied in a competitive way,” he noted, “I’d love to see more Gran Turismo titles – and I’m not criticising the development timeframe there – but our approach works really well for us. We have a very highly collaborative group and my job is to inspire my team. My requirement of them is to then come up with better ideas than I can. Our talented staff work together to come up with greater ideas than any one man can and the best thing is, that this has allowed us to scale, and this reflects in our game.”

When bringing up the fun factor that Penny Arcade so eloquently touched upon when comparing the franchises, Greenawalt remained humble and refused to be pulled into any sort of slanging match, but what makes Forza have that fun factor that many believe didn’t exist in Gran Turismo 5? “I think we keep it really close to people’s hearts.”

“It’s all about the layers,” he continued, “I think you hit the nail on the head when you said “at its heart,” [it’s a simulation racer] but beneath the simulation aspect there’s something in there for everyone.”

It’s not about choosing arcade or simulation either according to Greenawalt, it’s about “the things that make games fun, easy and great to jump into.” Careful not to pigeonhole the franchise, he notes, “We don’t want people to choose, so we provide a blend that tailors to lots of different people,” whether you’re a tuner, an artist, a collector and so on.

“We look at community and social networking and how people share content,” he continued, citing games like Pokémon, World of Warcraft and Animal Crossing for games that have inspired the direction of the franchise. “We don’t look at just racing games; we look at other genres for that hook that keeps people playing as well.”

With Forza 3 though, Turn 10 seemingly upped the ante ten-fold in respect to its community involvement, but did that focus pay off? Greenawalt seems to think so. “Yeah, absolutely. We joke in the studio that there’s a subsection of the audience we don’t know a lot about. We know a lot of enthusiasts play and talk on the forums, but there’s some who play the more fun modes like Tag or Cat & Mouse that we don’t know anything else about. They represent a huge part of our audience and provide a lot of data for us, but they don’t engage in the forums and it’s great to be able connect with these people in some way.”

So what does the future hold for Turn 10? Well, Forza 4 of course, but Greenawalt remained cryptic on what they did or didn’t learn from Forza 3, that they’re taking into Forza 4.

“We’re our own worst critics and take on board all the reviews and opinions,” said Greenawalt. “It would be so easy to drive yourself mad reading everyone’s opinions and evaluating what you’ve achieved. We try to bucket people into categories to tackle what each subsection wants and how we can tailor the next game to improve it for them. It’s a colossal list. We get together and decide which of those edits or additions are the most important.”

“We always see the glass as half empty and we’re very dedicated to improving the game.”

That surely means improving the physics on their simulation engine, after all, Turn 10 almost seem obsessed with that level of detail, but when asked whether anyone would actually notice the tweaks and upgrades, Greenawalt remained philosophical.

“I think it depends on what kind of customer we’re talking to. The tyre model, assists and controller buffer affect how we can modify these physics,” he noted, before reflecting on years gone-by when it would take days to run simulations. “Lots of the dynamic simulations that had to be done over a period of days have now been streamlined with greater accuracy so these effects are not only more powerful but also more concise. Ten years from now, I think we’re going to see race cars designed 100% in real time.”

Forza 4 though, for Greenawalt, isn’t just about extending and building on their previous goals and foundations. It’s, and I quote, about “giving people a playground to have them engage with their cars in.”

“We don’t want to make any of our cars disposable by limiting their usefulness in certain racing events,” he declared, “Upgrades and other customization really helps to achieve this. In terms of technology, LIVE and Kinect are two fantastic ways to give players brand new experiences that they don’t expect to stoke their passion.”

So, the inevitable Kinect subject reared its head amidst topics of community and the franchise’s roots, but at what point did using Kinect for Forza 4 become a reality? “Before we finished Forza 3, we had an incubation team who branched off to investigate these experiences.” It wasn’t just about racing with an imaginary wheel though for Greenawalt. Oh no, that was “too obvious.”

“We didn’t want to just look at the racing aspect, but how to interact with those cars using the technology,” before correcting us that the E3 demo wasn’t ever intended to be a Forza 3 add-on, it was simply intended to show what was achievable with the technology.

“The E3 demo wasn’t really a standalone product, it was just an example of some of these ideas that the team had created. Before long we saw some of this getting rolled into the fold for Forza 4’s development.” And the rest they say is history.

Being a Microsoft wholly owned studio though, did pressure come from outside to include Kinect features in Forza 4. Short answer: no. “I didn’t need any pushing from Microsoft and frankly we didn’t get any,” said Greenawalt, “We were very keen to support it. Back in 2002 when we pitched the franchise, we wanted to develop our own identity and team. As a creative studio, Kinect – and LIVE – have been brand new frontiers that we find hugely interesting.”

“It’s new technology and new territory,” said Greenawalt, speaking of their experience with the tech thus far. “What we’ve got now is the beginning of a new revolution and this is just the start, almost a palette cleanser. The ideas that will change the world require time to play with. I honestly still believe that we’re just scratching the surface with Kinect and that is hugely energizing for the team – the sky really is the limit.”

Even Turn 10 has seen the evolution of the tech in the time they’ve spent with it. “The XDK has just improved consistently, giving us more tools to play with when we use Kinect,” he pointed out. “Add in the rapid development on top and it’s really exciting for the team. I expect this to continue for another three or four years. There’s not been a change like this in gaming since, well… in my career, certainly.”

While Kinect is definitely adding another facet to the simulation genre, Greenawalt had some strong words for the genre itself while talking about innovating and reinventing it. “I think simulation racing as a genre is actually outdated in its name,” claims Greenawalt, “It’s a genre that hasn’t really changed in the last 20 years.”

“You’ve got arcade being about the thrills and spills, and real simulation that is so hard no-one can play it. With Forza we aspire to be both, or conversely, neither. We do try to take the best of both though, but for me, it’s all about the cars rather than the racing. My hope is that we wouldn’t just be judged as a simulation racer, but for our cars and our fun experiences.”

“It’s now about evolving your game into a game about cars,” and with Forza 4 scheduled to hit this year, that’s exactly what they intend to keep on doing.

crysmopompas · 12. April 2011 um 12:33

Turn 10 handed IGN a list of the most raced cars in Forza 3.
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/116/1160913p1.html

#1 Bugatti Veyron - 11,479,924 Races
#2 Datsun 510 - 11,249,622 Races
#3 Audi R8 5.2 - 10,835,396 Races
#4 Alfa Romeo Brera - 10,022,840 Races
#5 Ford Focus '09 - 8,852,870 Races
#6 Ford Fiesta - 8,288,149 Races
#7 Vauxhall VX220 - 6,550,745 Races
#8 Renault Clio V6 - 5,725,256 Races
#9 VW Scirocco GT - 5,318,298 Races
#10 Fiat Abarth 500 - 5,287,162 Races

11 Shelby GT500 '07 4,986,709
12 Ferrari FXX 4,850,798
13 Lotus Exige '06 4,743,235
14 MINE'S GT-R R34 4,732,949
15 Dodge Viper '08 4,433,523
16 Peugeot 207 S 4,351,868
17 Reventon 4,299,478
18 Porsche 997 GT2 4,237,177
19 California 4,096,532
20 #66 ARX-02a 3,945,154
21 Citroen C4 3,840,674
22 Nissan GT-R R34 3,832,462
23 #8 Peugeot 908 3,753,862
24 Chevy Camaro '10 3,717,529
25 #25 GT500 SC430 3,593,011
26 Koenigsegg CCGT 3,564,605
27 BMW M5 E60 3,532,529
28 #9 Peugeot 908 3,514,818
29 Subaru WRX '05 3,354,301
30 Lexus IS F 3,189,252
31 Audi S5 3,185,552
32 Silvia S15 3,110,802
33 Nissan GT-R '10 3,080,806
34 BMW M3-GTR 3,015,458
35 Ford GT 2,968,264
36 Honda NSX-R GT 2,909,608
37 #16 Mazda B09/86 2,855,767
38 Toyota Supra '98 2,714,637
39 Mercedes SL65 2,693,024
40 Subaru WRX '08 2,649,033
41 SEAT Leon SC 2,527,914
42 Top Secret Supra 2,392,235
43 Fairlady Z '03 2,336,503
44 Honda Civic '94 2,306,031
45 Corvette C6 Z06 2,288,484
46 Toyota Trueno 2,092,126
47 Honda Fit + 2,083,775
48 #4 C6.R '07 2,074,223
49 #45 GT3-RSR 2,058,709
50 #23 GT500 GT-R 2,047,564
51 Nissan 370Z 2,034,679
52 #92 BMW M3 GT2 1,995,719
53 VW Golf GTi Mk2 1,991,807
54 Nissan GT-R R33 1,945,466
55 Lancer Evo.9 MR 1,943,480
56 #6 GT500 SC430 1,890,580
57 #7 RS Spyder 1,863,670
58 Lancer Evo.10 1,847,229
59 Ford Mustang '93 1,824,184
60 #8 Audi R10 TDI 1,818,934
61 VW Rabbit GTI 1,811,116
62 Subaru WRX '04 1,766,795
63 Mazda RX-7 FD 1,685,038
64 #62 F430GT 1,634,959
65 Murcielago LP640 1,613,457
66 Subaru 22B 1,541,457
67 Maserati GT 1,533,951
68 #007 Aston DBR9 1,526,323
69 Dodge Viper '03 1,514,909
70 Toyota Celica'03 1,414,136
71 Alfa Romeo 8C 1,412,767
72 Charger '69 1,397,317
73 Challenger '09 1,372,853
74 #16 RS Spyder 1,341,677
75 Trans Am '87 1,317,784
76 Silvia S13 1,296,425
77 Ferrari F50 GT 1,290,890
78 Honda CR-X 1,267,254
79 Gallardo 1,248,753
80 Ferrari F430 1,246,373
81 Honda S2000 1,238,218
82 Murcielago 1,230,353
83 Chevy Camaro '90 1,221,286
84 Ferrari 599 GTB 1,212,589
85 Audi R8 4.2 1,202,767
86 Toyota Yaris + 1,198,704
87 Miura '06 1,191,472
88 Dodge Ram 1,177,589
89 VW Golf R32 1,171,874
90 Barracuda 1,104,047
91 Honda Civic '99 1,101,955
92 Nissan GT-R R32 1,042,591
93 TVR Sagaris 1,036,433
94 HKS Lancer Evo 1,029,244
95 #43 McLaren F1 1,020,136
96 #2 Audi R10 TDI 1,005,481
97 Chevy Aveo5 + 1,003,088
98 Silvia S14 1,002,408
99 Jaguar XKR-S 996,871

Die Liste ist naturgemäß stark von Preisfahrzeugen geprägt. Was die Leute am Veyron (imo ein häßlicher Betonklotz :ugly:

) so toll finden bleibt mir weiterhin ein Rätsel - mehr als einen Übermotor hat das Auto nicht.
Nur 1 Porsche ist in der Liste. Immerhin 1 DLC Fahrzeug hat's in die Top99 geschafft, und das sogar an Position 33: GT-R '10

mojo · 12. April 2011 um 12:49

Die Liste ist naturgemäß stark von Preisfahrzeugen geprägt. Was die Leute am Veyron (imo ein häßlicher Betonklotz :ugly:

) so toll finden bleibt mir weiterhin ein Rätsel - mehr als einen Übermotor hat das Auto nicht.

oO
würd ich so nicht sagen..

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